Interview: Tony Kaye

You wouldn’t think films such as American History X and Lake of Fire would come from a man so soft-spoken, with a slew of nervous mannerisms.  Also hard to believe, was that this was the man who eagerly fought to have his named changed to Humpty Dumpty on the American History X credits, after Ed Norton went in and re-cut the film for more screen time.

Kaye self-financed this new documentary on Abortion and has been compiling footage for the past fifteen years.  A harrowing, honest look at the situation Kaye interviewed individuals from all sides of the debate including Norm Chomsky, Randall Terry, Alan Dershowitz, Norma McCorvey (aka Jane Roe) and Frances Kissling.  Most haunting is the footage of Paul Hill, a seemingly diplomatic, yet extremely vocal, pro-choice zealot who wound up being executed by the state of Florida after gunning down an abortion doctor and his assistant. 

It’s definitely not a film to see with your family on a lazy afternoon, but an important watch none-the-less.  This is one of those potent films that knocks the wind out of you throughout the entire 152 minute running time.   Shot in luminous black and white, Lake of Fire’s conclusion is anything but.  I met up with Tony Kaye in New York.

Benjamin Crossley-Marra: After having gone through all the complications with American History X, what made you decide to tackle even more controversial subject matter?
Tony Kaye: I started Lake of Fire in 1990, before I got involved with American History X.  It’s been very difficult in terms of getting the film made throughout, any film is difficult to make, but when you’re making a film about personal incidents it’s much easier, there’s a narrative line you can work towards.  When you’re making a documentary about an issue, particularly one like this where they’re are no walls to it, there’s no end.  So it was very difficult to give it a conclusion.  I’m not the most experienced filmmaker either, this is my second film, so again, it was very hard for me to compile.

BCM: When did you fell like you had enough, that this was finished and you were satisfied?
TK: I don’t really consider the film to be finished.  It wasn’t a specific scene or anything like that.  I considered the situation to be ridiculous.  I just had to see if I could get this out now.  It’s not like I was working everyday for sixteen years, which would define me as absolutely the worst filmmaker on the planet.  It’s very difficult when you finance a film yourself and I went bankrupt in the process.  Not just because of this film, but I put a lot of my money into American History X as well.

BCM: You get at the underlying reasons of why people think what they think.  In both films and there’s really no resolution, is non-resolution your message?
TK: Well racism and abortion are two of the biggest issues.  I don’t know how many more big issues there are.  There’s racism, abortion, death penalty, health care, and to a degree, crime.  I mean I’m not a commentator on modern times.  I’m not a historian or politician either.  I just spend my life trying to understand the rhythms of sound and motion picture, text and ideas.  When you put them all together you can tell a story.  I think these films say different things to different people.  What I hope they do is open up a dialogue between people.  They create a situation where people will talk about what they’ve seen.  I hope I’ve brought them something valuable to talk about.

BCM:  Both subjects are drawn out of irrationality, is this something that fascinates you or do you feel you offer new illumination?
TK: They deal with a million different things.  Yes, those issues are made up of irrationalities and I wish Norm Chomsky were here to talk on my behalf.  Talking about film is so hard, I find them difficult to make, but analyzing one’s own work is even harder I’d say.  I mean they’re issues we have to deal with and sort out in some way.  As a filmmaker, I have a moral obligation to deal with these issues. 

BCM: This film is very graphic in depicting abortions, why did you feel the need to show all that?
TK:  Well as far as showing the late-term abortions, I didn’t show the women’s faces because they preferred not to be shown, so I depicted the backs of their heads instead.  As to why I showed the abortion in the first place, is because it’s the crux of the whole film.  There’s only two things that really happen in the film, the two abortions that take place.  The rest of the information the audience is told.  My plan was to enthusiastically and journalistically explore the pro-life argument.  They say you should look at abortion and be shocked, so there was no way around it; you have to show it.  There’s a film that we show in the movie called The Hard Truth, that’s a film pro-life organizations show people to gain support for their cause.  In one case a man, Michael Griffith, goes out and murders an abortion doctor because he’s so offended at having seen films like these.   Then John Burns, the man who showed Mr. Griffith the tape, is on trial as a defendant.

BCM: But why was it necessary to show such graphic detail?
TK: Because in order for a scene to be effective, I have to be moved.  If I don’t feel moved, how can I possibly put it forward to an audience and say: “I think you should feel this”?  Spectacle and truth are the two ruling compartments for me.  I don’t always know what I’m going to get.  I didn’t know that when I was following this woman into the recovery room, that she was going to tell the story of her day and emotionally relax and let go.  It was an outlet for her to vent her feelings.  I’m very pleased with the footage I shot.  I also don’t think I could have identified with her in a cinematic way, unless I had seen what she experienced first hand.  Now there’s a sensationalist argument in this.  People have told me they thought I was being a sensationalist for showing the late-term abortion in such a graphic way.  I haven’t looked up the word “sensation” recently, but to me if there is sensation in a film, it’s a good thing.

BCM:  At what point in time did you feel you had enough elements for a theatrical release?
TK:  I worked on the editing for quite some years and then I got to the point where I felt I had to put this out.  But then I thought there were some current things happening with the issue that I should document.  I went to South Dakota, to film what’s going on now, and so the rest of the film acts as a flashback.  The film starts off in the present, then moves back to the nineties.  So afterwards I decided to try and put this out now to see what happens. It’s been gathering force and a life of its own on the festival circuit.  Now it’s going into the theater.  I had a remarkable experience when I showed it at NYU to about 150 film students, none of them left, and many came up to me afterwards proclaiming that films like this one drove them to become filmmakers.   I’m not trying to be egotistical, but it just made me very happy.  I love seeing young people practicing in a purest way.  I’m a fan of American films and I came over here to make American films.  Lake of Fire is about an issue that’s only debated (in this fashion) in America.  It’s very much a film about America; I’m a fascinated European looking at America.   Now I’m writing a film about a series of characters that come together three months after the Katrina flooding.  It’s also a very American film.  I don’t really have a point-of-view other than I’m studying from film.

BCM:  What did you learn were the differences between making a documentary film versus a narrative?
TK:  The narrative film is a very formal process.  You write, shoot then go into an editing room, tweaking scenes for the theatrical release.  The great thing about documentary filmmaking is that you’re shooting it yourself.  So when something big happens you have to be in the right place, at the right with the right lens on the camera and get certain shots that you think will flow.  Certainly the shots I got of Paul Hill and the doctor he killed, tracks like a narrative.  To this day I can’t believe I shot the murderer, the victim and the place where the crime took place.  

BCM: Are your views of abortion the same as preceding the film as upon finishing it?
TK:  You know I have a very confused view on this.  I think all the views for pro-choice are 1000% right, also, I think all the arguments for pro-life are 1000% right.  It’s very hard for a man to be able to approach this subject at all because we can’t even conceive what going through an abortion must be like.  Like I said, I’m not a commentator or politician, I just show what I see.  I do think that I’ve let the energies and the light flow through me and the result is Lake of Fire.

TH!NKFilm releases Lake of Fire on October 3rd.